Mass Man is a reference to University of Toronto's Marshall McLuhan teaching about "mass man".
The date of this Reddit posting I authored on April 8, 2015 in April Showers metaphor lead up to Bloomsday 2015 (June 16, 2015 - a day that shall live in USA infomy / info-phony / infamy).
https://old.reddit.com/r/interstellar/comments/31ved9/nolan_brothers_are_bad_writers_and_directors/
0 points (29% upvoted) - massive downvotes
On-topic for the subreddit, bot egoism / egomania / Trump mindset confrontation. The Internet Researh Agency has been all over Reddit now for 12 months, since March 2013. https://WashingtonMonthly.com/2017/11/24/a-trumprussia-confession-in-plain-sight/ as reported June 2, 2014 for the first timein English / Western world above-ground news language: https://www.BuzzFeedNews.com/article/maxseddon/documents-show-how-russias-troll-army-hit-america
Reddit posting title:
"Nolan Brothers are bad writers and directors because the story tellers spell out every mystery in the final 30 minutes"
Message:
This idea keeps being parroted on Reddit. "Parroting" doesn't even touch the meme-spewing negativity, and I borrow Stephan A. Hoeller's use of Friedrich Nietzsche's "frog croaking" phrase about art:
In his early novel A Portrait of the Artists As a Young Man (written 1904-1914, published 1916), James Joyce quotes Thomas Aquinas to the effect that "beautiful things are those that please when seen" (pulcra sunt quae visa placent). Beauty is thus a value, a good, an end in itself. Ugliness depresses, beauty exhilarates, heightening the sense of life, which again is a good in to itself. Normally art aspires to beauty and thus to a sensuous glorification of life: so that Nietzsche could write of the aesthetics of art as "nothing but applied physiology." Whereas l'art pour l'art, in his view, was an aberration of the "Decadence" of his century: "the virtuosic croaking of cold-blooded frogs, despairing in their swamp."
Beauty we may regard, then, as a normal and proper intention as the Way of Art, affirmative in the sensuous glorification of life, thus grounded in physiology. To this degree, the Way of Art coincides with the Way of Beauty. However, there is another and further possible degree or range of the revelation of art that is beyond beauty, namely, the sublime, which has been defined as "that which arouses sentiments of awe and reverence and a sense of vastness and power outreaching human comprehension." Cosmic space and great distances experienced as sublime; audio here
So, I engaged several individuals here in Reddit about exactly what they think that is spelled out in the movie so blatantly. Why they think the movie lacks subtext and subtle explanations. What I find is that the people complaining can't seem to observe many of the things in the ending. I have witnessed multiple frogs croaking, despairing in their swamp, reference this Futurama scene to criticize the Nolan brother's shallow art:
Meme Image Robot Devil: "You can't just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!"
Yet, that's not the story the film shows at all. The "final 30 minutes" scene where Cooper is explaining to TARS about Love and the watch gift - Cooper is not a narrator talking over the film. Just like other scenes the film depicts, Cooper is talking to TARS and educating him. Cooper is reprogramming a robot who does not yet understand Love and Compassion. The military robots do not have such programming! Like Murph's school, the military robots were educated only for practical purposes. NASA did not teach them that war and murder is bad, and the Dr. Mann's of the world ("best of humanity") were the kind of people doing the prior software programming.
The croaking frogs don't seem to be able to tie in the military robot and it's doubting viewpoint of future human + future robot capabilities. The robots, like Dr. Mann, were previously programmed only with Socratic thinking, like Friedrich Nietzsche's MasterMan. Cooper, Romilly and Murph are Friedrich Nietzsche's Übermensch - who challenge the face value of education with their personally assembled bookshelf, including fiction mythology knowledge. Dr. Brand graduates after the explosion at Mann's planet, becoming a Übermensch who no longer keeps Love and Compassion a secret.
Cooper's dialog with TARS is only answering TARS' challenge to his interpretation. TARS also openly doubts that Murph can understand it "as a child". This dialog does not explain much of the ending. Love alone does not solve the problems of the how to communicate to Murph. It is only a component of the communications problems. There is also the changes on Murph's end - the meditative listening and age 35 threshold that she must cross - a human educational boundary of time. This age 35 reference of Murph burning her brother's corn fields is a reference to Dante's Inferno and Convivio. It is a key educational boundary, where she criticize Professor Brand for his lies - just as she had done in the grade school. Joseph Campbell has fully translated to modern vocabulary this aspect of human development (age 35 threshold).
The black hole is also how the future humans can construct their Radio Shack, inside the black hole. Facing the gravity of the black hole, which is not directly explained in dialog of the ending, is the real advancement that saves Earth.
The visit to the water planet creates decades that allowed Dr. Romilly to solve the event-horizon crossing and to propose TARS be sent across the Event Horizon. Romilly's key creative calculations allowed Cooper to plan the black hole entrance and Dr. Brand's slingshot escape.
Love only answered how to fine-tune cross-dimension communications. Love shares which planet to visit and why Murph knew the watch. The real science progress was the creative work of Romilly and Murph doing years of hard questioning and scientific observations. Romilly's "say it don't spray it" scene, shows that he is a creatively driven man - and has passion about his journey - having poetic insight beyond the existing generation of robots. CASE would have been unable to solve the equations. Romilly's "spray it" scene also shows that he overcame his earlier fear of the thin aluminum walls. The fear that was clouding his mind, going inside himself for a deeper passion than terror.
Of course, all this is not spelled out directly in the ending dialog! And these are some of the far deeper and complex human themes of the film's story. Bookshelf thumping.
Why are people still talking about the film 2001 from the 1960's? Why do people keep thinking there is no depth to Interstellar - just because they put 45 minutes of their brain thinking about it? Copying and pasting MEMEs 8 hours a day, /r/MoviesCircleJerk mocking, is not deep thinking - it is reactionary rejection.
Frog Croaking is shallow thinking. Deepness isn't a function of how eloquent you write or how many hours you spend - it's a unique measure, the depth like sublime. Popularity itself is a factor if there is no self-awareness. Just as Islamic Terrorists may devote their life to Islam - they are still incredibly shallow in their interpretations of the Quran's pages about Love, Forgiveness and Compassion! Again, from Stephan A. Hoeller:
"In other words, what he is saying is: in Judaism, Christianity and Islam – we have taken the lowest of all low roads... in terms of interpreting the mythic contents of our religions. The lowest of all low roads.That is my expression, but I would rather think that Joseph [Campbell] would agree."
Why can't educated people in 2015 identify this depth distinction of art and mythology? I consider this distinction to be one of the key aspects of this film...
Reddit audience / People calling for drugs. www.LazyWake.com - LSD Finnegans Wake Lazy as Marshall McLuhan said about drug users and book reading. Drugies of Reddit, anti-intellectual stoners.
my comment reply, downvoted -3 comment:
What drugs are you using and where can I find them? They sound fun.
"I'll tell you a way, a very nice way. Sit in a room and read -- and read and read. And read the right books by the right people: Your mind is brought onto that level, and you have a nice, mild, slow-burning rapture all the time. This realization of life can be a constant realization in your living. When you find an author who really grabs you, read everything he has done. Don't say, "Oh, I want to know what So-and-so did" -- and don't bother at all with the best-seller list. Just read what this one author has to give you. And then you can go read what he had read. And the world opens up in a way that is consistent with a certain point of view. But when you go from one author to another, you may be able to tell us the date when each wrote such and such a poem -- but he hasn't said anything to you." ~
Reddit audience / People against neuro-diversity, anti-Autism (RFK Jr. autism attitudes / "associative thinking" of autism). Mass mind meme: autistic minds like trains. https://old.reddit.com/r/autism/comments/15stsho/so_why_do_autistic_people_like_trains_so_much/
my comment reply, downvoted -11 comment:
Your statment is very convoluted and it sounds like you get lost in your own train of thought.
I am a unique individual. I do not express in short MEME-lang and popular phrases that are so incredibly upvoted and popular on Reddit. And I sound as I sound today. These ideas are very complicated and come from months of effort. These ideas shared are not just my personal thoughts and observations. I cited an audio lecture by Stephan A. Hoeller, a book by James Joyce, Friedrich Nietzsche, the film itself, and a Futurama meme used on Reddit. I didn't just say "people are idiots" and walk away. I presented citations and past human analysis of art and life.
You give no specifics questions or details of any kind. You just dismiss what I say because you find it complex. That's the very theme of my entire posting! I looked it up in the dictionary: Convoluted means extremely complex and difficult to follow. That's the very definition of Mythology and sublime art!
That's exactly what I feel haters of the film are saying that the Love and Compassion themes are shallow. That there is no Dante's Inferno here. That poetry is not a key aspect of the Love story. That all they see is just simplistic ("cheesy") dialog from Cooper and Dr. Brand about Love. That the programming of TARS and CASE, from Military robots to understand Love and risk-taking, is not an element of the film's story. That even being open, and not secretive like Dr. Brand, is the problem of life in 2015! Exactly the kind of wasteland thinking that is so upvoted today on Reddit.
The first two comments here are: "What drugs are you using"? (simplistic chemical answer, not thinking for months like the Nolan brothers did) and "Your statment is very convoluted " (you view is too complex, "you get lost").
A person can go to /r/WorldNews and read about war and mass killings every hour of every day. But as soon as you come over to a film subreddit and start talking about absence of Love and Compassion in the modern world - and the role of technology and propaganda in warfare - many people in 2015 treat you like a fool. And mock you for your "hippie ideals". That individual people who desire peace should take no role in stopping war by working peer to peer, and we should just let technology growth and robotic governments kill us all with their Socratic logic.
I reply to claims, but the other purson gave up and abandoned serious discussion of media ecology. "Too stubborn to say: The Buck Stops Here".
my comment reply, downvoted -2 comment:
you start by inundating us with what your interpretation of art is via a 'A Portrait of the Artists As a Young Man";
I did not say that. I said that Stephan A. Hoeller said that, who was in fact, citing James Joyce. Both expand upon it greatly.
For example, your reference to Dante's Inferno and Convivio in relation to Murph burning the field is as off base as one can get, an intellectual grasping of straws.
If you read what i wrote, i said age 35 was translated by Joseph Campbell. It's right there in my posting. I'll provide a brief reference, Campbell 1987:
That is the problem of Dante's Divine Comedy, too. The crisis comes in the "middle of the way of our life," when the body is beginning to fade, and another whole constellation of themes comes breaking into your dream world. Dante says that, in the middle year of his life, he was lost in a dangerous wood. And he was threatened there by three animals, symbolizing pride, desire, and fear. Then Virgil, the personification of poetic insight, appeared and conducted him through the labyrinth of hell, which is the place of those fixed to their desires and fears, who can't pass through to eternity. Dante was carried through to the beatific vision of God. On a smaller scale, in this Pima Indian story, we have the same mythological image. The Pima Indians were among the simplest Indian cultures in North America. And here they have, in their own way, made use of this highly sophisticated image, which matches Dante.
and Also on November 3, 1967:
The middle period, Maturity, stretches from twenty-five to forty-five with thirty-five as the mid-point. These are the years of fulfillment of your role in society, as society understands them. The virtues are reason, courage, love, and loyalty—and courteousness. But at the thirty-five age, a crisis occurs. This is the crisis symbolized in Dante's Divine Comedy of individual realization of those truths which were suggested by the tradition in which you were brought up. Let's say you just don't accept tradition. Tradition leads you to a moment of your own personal realization of truth in the mystery of being.
The movie starts with Cooper at age 35 and Murph talking about the 10 years of Cooper's dreams about what is lacking in robot programming. Again you just "dismiss" without actually showing any knowledge of Dante's work or Campbell's work. I'm not going to provide an 800 page book here just because you want simple MEMEs and answers.
Levels of Hell, and levels of the journey are obvious connections to Dante. The levels of education and graduation, and how it's decided to educate humans. Burning fields on Earth, and the lack of fresh air and dirt. Obvious hints of connections to underground and Hell.
But the key emphasis on age 35 - and that being the same age as Murph and Cooper - that's where it really directly gets into the themes of Dante's Inferno. It's right there at the introductory of Inferno. It's a psyche fiction story, just like Inception and Intersteller. The nightly dreams of Cooper at 35 (opening scene), and Murph doing meditation in her room as she listens to her inner heart that the watch has the message from her father. This is all drawn out and emphasized, even if not spoken in dialog.
My entire posting was about the rich subtext and the lack of "blatantly spelled out" story meaning. It doesn't matter if the Nolan Brother's intended the age 35 directly because of Dante, North American Pima Indians, or Nolan's own personal life observations. That's why Campbell says the same image appears in North America - independent but brain connected development age of human beings (not robots like TARS). The same idea can be expressed in art from multiple cultures. The theme is expressed in multiple ways - by Murph challenging Professor Brand's lies about the mathematical formulas - and her challenging her grade school teachers about the Apollo program. These are different age sets and echoing themes... like the repeated poetry.
Trying to ELI5 on complex things like this is never going to work. You can keep taking shallow pot shots - and popularity of shit thinking will win out. Instead of actually trying to understand me - you just keep dismissing my viewpoint. I spend hundreds of hours - and share references - where is your effort?
That's exactly how virtuosic frog croaking works! It's a complex music people like, but it's shallow. Like most of what gets upvoted as headlines on Reddit, or what is popular on television. Friedrich Nietzsche was talking about this long before Reddit or television, and that's what Stephan A. Hoeller is saying in his audio recording from 1987.
many of your points are far reaching at best.
Deepness in reaching is what I said, which you insult and imply isn't real and that the film is only 10 meters deep - when I say it is "Turtles All the Way Down". It is Mythology deep.
The movie uses a bookshelf to talk about other stories. It isn't about just spewing personal shallow viewpoints and saying "hey, don't provide quotes - we don't need a bookshelf". Using books is a major theme and image of the film!
In a new root thread, another reply of mine. The person gave me a one-word message, mocking the complex posting with banlity. As Carl Sagan (relative to Interstellar 2014 film) called it in 1995 "Especially a kind of Celebration of Ignorance" on social media systems, tiny-short 10-second "sound bites".
my comment reply, downvoted -3 comment:
/r/iamverysmart
Wow, such deep effort of personal, original human thinking! You aren't meme copying robot Socratic responding at all!
my comment reply, downvoted -3 comment:
You really elevated the world by taking the time you did today to share your insight and how much you really care about others.
